devarim

Siblings gets complicated, I think. Definitely exempt as kids (even over 3 for girls/9 for boys), and should be *limited* as adults, IIRC. Also, grandparents/grandchildren are exempt from the prohibition, for the supposed reason that it brings the parents nachas and for the real reason that all the Bubbes out there would throw such a fit as you never saw if they were prohibited from kissing their grandsons who are over 9 years of age.

I could write a long diatribe on the rest of your post, but I don't feel like it right now. Been thinking about it recently, though.

Well, take my opinion with the "she's-an-atheist" grain of salt:

I think it's a silly idea to put a blanket prohibition on premarital sex, for just the reasons you said. Sex is GOOD -- and it's the most potent form of expressing your wish to be close to someone there is. And if one is going to restrict oneself to sharing this form of closeness with one and only one person for the rest of one's life, it seems *necessary* to determine BEFORE you make that commitment that there's actually compatibility in that area.

Also I think it's more than a little odd that a wedding is supposed to transform sex from The Thing That Must Not Be Discussed, Much Less Done to a natural part of life.

BTW, in response to your comment on my blog...you really, really need to see that episode. I was going to say you should watch it on CNBC tonight, but obviously that's out of the question. It ought to be rerun again at some point, though.

Oh, so many thoughts.
In my quest to be ever-more observant (which has a theoretical limit to it, indeed, but I am no where close to that in practice), I spend much time considering this issue. I am single and certainly not a virgin, but my desire to adhere to halacha is deeply rooted; I wish I could just find Mr. Right and get married and get past this troublesome personal spot. Besides, negiah appeals to me on an individual level, as a good answer to what has ailed me and past relationships. But this is one mitzvah that seems to require an entire rewiring of my ways of being. Not to hug my friends when I see them? Not to kiss a man I'm attracted to? I might as well learn Chinese, at this point, so far I am from speaking a dialect of distance and modesty. Sad, though, I feel like a failure.

I like the agnostic's post above (or was she an atheist?) in that it asks a great question, relevant to the young religious folks I see around me. Although I must say, I also see a healthy embrace of sexuality within their parents' marriages, and so, no shame attached to it. I have no idea of the kids' inner experiences, of course, but just an observation. Somehow, this seems just so much contrast to the guilt-ridden, over-the-top experimentation done by the Catholic kids I was surrounded by growing up.

I dated a guy who was an Orthodox yeshiva grad a couple of years ago. He unleashed himself on me on the first date, making me feel so much the used kleenex, and on our second date (which I stupidly showed up for), he told me he "wasn't comfortable" touching me when I patted his arm in awkward greeting. His duplicitousness was specifically a way to use women, I thought. I keep hoping I won't run into him ever again.

To quote (and I really hope I'm coding correctly here)

"Or, on the other hand, what about the couples who do discuss all of those other issues, but who are so overcome by shyness and a culturally-imposed sense of shame about sexual activity that they never bother to talk about sexual compatibility? How can they, even, if neither of them knows from firsthand experience what a good (or bad) kiss feels like?"

I have a friend who just graduated from Stern who's getting married within a week or so. She and her boyfriend are very happily shomer, but they're also very happily talking about plans for their wedding night and such (also taking into account the fact that people are often too exhausted on their wedding nights for much more than sleep, they're being so comprehensive about it that it's almost cute.)

As much as N and N seem to be exceptions to a lot of the rules, it seems that among the Very Orthodox it's something that comes up in some way in various chatan and kallah classes (although they'd say choson and kallah...)

There, I've managed to weigh in without actually talking about my own opinion. :-)

"And if one is going to restrict oneself to sharing this form of closeness with one and only one person for the rest of one's life, it seems *necessary* to determine BEFORE you make that commitment that there's actually compatibility in that area."

Why? No, really, I mean it. A lot of sexual compatibility is learned, not instinctive. You can tell without actually touching if there's "chemistry," if you feel "sparks" (sexual tension) in the air between you. The rest you can work on.

Even people who don't "wait for marriage" don't test out every conceivably compatible partner out there and pick the one who's the best in bed. And if the one you choose to share your life with is compatible with you in every other way, but needs some "work" in the bedroom... is it fair to (unconciously, perhaps) compare them in your mind with previous lovers? I think it's actually better to not have so much to compare with (memory wise, which often isn't fair to reality anyway!) but to create memories together, unsullied by the ghosts of past lovers.

And yes, sex is a part of what is covered in pre-marital (chosson and kallah) classes... not just the nitty gritty of taharat hamishpacha observance, but the details covered in "health and family life" class among the public school kids. And there's a fair amount of detail in the Gemorah as well... I think the yeshiva boys at least may well cover some of this towards the end of High School, depending on the school, of course.

BS"D
The song reference is to Supertramp's Logical Song, no?
I'll write about touching later.
Aviel

Wrong, Aviel...or, at least, not what I was thinking of. No lolly for you.

Oh, and the quote inthe subject line is from "Modern Major General," no?

(Really, will write more about this, honest.)

No, it's not. Did all of you sleep through the 80s or something?

Hee! I was also misled by Supertramp, at first, but saved that very same day by "Thursday Night 80's" or something like that on WPLJ. It is, of course, that old George Michael classic.

Thanks for the high school flashback. :D

oooh, twirly!

OK, as requested, a comment on the actual topic:

I do think it's a problem when people feel the need to sneak around about premarital sexual contact, when a guy tells his friends and family that he is shomer negiah, but his girlfriend knows otherwise. Is it really better for him to lie like this?

I do think maybe it's better that he lie, yes. I think there can be a lot of value in shame: it reminds you that you're doing this because you can't help it, not because you believe it's right.

Assuming that's why he's doing it, and assuming that's what he believes. Otherwise I suppose he'd just be lying because of the social stigma, and yeah, I'm not sure there's much point in that.

Yeah, I think it's more of a social stigma thing, not shame. There's pressure to conform, or to appear to conform even when you can't. I think it's part of the same phenomenon that results in homosexuals getting pushed into (opposite-sex) marriage by their religious communities. Many of them stay closeted to the community but conduct another life "underground" (while leaving their spouses sexually unsatisfied, I may add). Meanwhile, the community as a whole is blind to the problem, because no one ever talks about what goes on out of sight.

But Shanna, that's a very different issue. That becomes a "problem" in the communal sense because it involves and affects the spice (that's spouses, for all you boring English-speakers :-p) of the homosexuals in question. For individual people making a choice to be shomer negiah or not, and with whom, and how public to make that decision...I think that's a personal choice, and any permutation is acceptable.

Furthermore, if someone pretends to be shomer negiah but in private isn't really, and it's not because of shame, as Persephone says, why is it necessarily because of "stigma?" What about someone who doesn't believe that shmirat shabbat and kashrut are really important in themselves, but values the community that embraces those practices, so they observe them in public so as to "belong" to the community, and make a statement of respect, but don't necessarily keep the same standard in private? Why is this case different?

Alisha - this situation is different, in two opposite directions. Violating Shabbat or kashrut in private can be a much bigger deal than violating negiah in private, because if I (hypotehtically) serve you food that I cooked on Shabbat (when you weren't looking) or in a pan recently used for a ham, then I am also causing you to violate halacha.

On the other hand, choosing to violate negiah in private while extolling its virtues in public means that you are setting expectations for other people that you yourself cannot (or choose not to) live up to. I suppose there is some similarity with Shabbat and kashrut here, but I see negiah as a bigger problem when people pretend the violations don't exist. The issue is less about what any individual does behind closed doors (yichud! there's another thing!) and more about communal acknowledgement that these things do go on, that there is a demand for a better method of negotiating relationships.

I've been trying for a while now to draw up a good comparison with kashrut and food cravings, but I can't. Nothing else in halacha compares to hormonal surges and sexual desire. Nothing else compares to the societal pressure (and good advice) to consider X, Y, and Z before getting married, and to accomplish A, B, and C, but discovering that you don't have enough time to get past X or do more than half of B, because if you wait any longer to get married you will either go insane or violate halacha.

I think the implicit assumption in my example was that the person not keeping shabbat or kashrut in private but not making that publicly known because of respect for the observant community is not going to be doing something to put another member of that community in a halachically compromising position like the ones you suggest.

That aside, I understand your point about it being a communal issue better now than I did before, but I think the "issue" is not that there are people claiming to be shomer negiah who aren't in private, but that that struggle (between premature marriage and breaking halacha) is real for so many.

Great discussion. I've learned tons.